We’re blessed to have Lara banks. She’s the managing director at McKenna Capital Management, which oversees private she oversees private equity, with a focus on 3 billion in their venture portfolio costs 30 relationships today, she’s going to share with us how McKenna approaches manager selection, the evolving role of LPs now, especially in such an interesting market, I’ll say, and insights for managers on navigating these cycles and building durable firms. And so with that, we welcome LoRa,

Lara Banks 00:50
yeah, well, thank you guys for having me. I’m really excited for the conversation, and as a frequent listener of the podcast, I really appreciate what you guys have done for the venture and allocator community.

Earnest Sweat 01:01
ow did you get to this world of being an allocator? Yeah,

Lara Banks 01:18
it was. It was kind of a meandering path, I actually started more on the direct side and in a very kind of unique position at a hedge fund trading vocational spreads and power. So very different from where I am today, but had some interest in understanding a broader space than just the power markets. And so over the years, I kind of moved to broader and broader roles. And then he moved to the Bay Area and found McKenna at that point, in 2012 and worked initially on real assets, and then moved over to private equity and venture. And I just really loved being able to be at that 30,000 foot level, but also being able to help new people think about, how do they want to build a firm? And so having the appreciation for how hard it is to do the investing side, and then kind of that working with people to build their new firms, is that’s a big part of what McKenna invests in his emerging managers. That’s

Earnest Sweat 02:21
, Are you the only REIT equity research analyst to ever become a venture capitalist? And I was like me, actually, but with that, it really made me think about like I’ve had to what a lot of things I learned from that early background and how it shifted into venture I’m curious for you making that shift from real assets to venture capital, what was there in the training that has helped you have a different perspective, and what did you have to kind of build as a gap?

Lara Banks 03:07
I think at least on the energy side, there are a lot of kinds of and the space, particularly in power, when I was there, was shifting a lot. So how do you have to kind of change your businesses? This is when the power markets were just getting deregulated, and so always looking for what are the new opportunities? I think that’s one thing that I’ve taken from it. I did do some oil and gas work too, and just seeing that has that mentality of hope and optimism is very similar to what we see in venture and so there are a lot of parallels, things that are different. Is obviously the downside protection, the idea that you’ll just get your money back from an asset, that is a shift, but there are a number of parallels, as we think about and it’s one of the things I thought about with energy, in particular, is there’s a lot of technology coming that shifts that opportunity side and the cost of commodities. And so there are, there are parallels that I kind of be able to bring to private equity and venture, particularly the venture side, with that optimism, which I really, I think is the most exciting part is to think about, what could the world be, what could happen. And I think that’s where, you know, being in the venture world can be really fun. Would you mind

Alexa Binns 04:23
giving us a brief overview of what McKenna does today? I know you’ve been there over a decade, almost everybody, it seems, and McKenna has been there for 10 or 20 years. So you are in this story, in yourself? Yeah,

Lara Banks 04:40
ust in terms of McKenna, we were founded about 20 years ago in 2005 and the idea was to bring the endowment model to smaller endowments and foundations. And that was at the kind of forefront of the OCIO wave. And then over the last couple years, we’ve actually made the building block. Stocks of the endowment investable, most notably buyout venture and some real estate. And those are opportunities for people to invest in an already built out private portfolio, and that allows them to have the access to managers that we’ve cultivated over a number of years and then continue on with us. And so if they want to set it and forget it exposure to buyout or venture, they can do that. So I came in pre that transition, and have kind of worked at a number of parts of McKenna. What’s really amazing about McKenna, I think have appreciation for in terms of our managers, what they’re going through is that we are also are an entrepreneurial firm, and we’ve had our shifts over time and kind of, I think, make opportunities for those who are here to stay and build new ideas. And I think that’s one of the reasons that you see such longevity at McKenna, is because it is a dynamic, interesting place to build a career and to partner with new managers. And the best part of my day is getting to talk to managers and seeing what they’re seeing in the market and learning from them. And that’s what I think keeps a lot of us here.

Alexa Binns 06:18
Yeah, you’re based right there, next to the rosewood on Sand Hill Road. A lot of our listeners are across the globe, and I’m curious about those past, you know, 2010, years, if you feel like the focus of you know, your adventure strategy has changed, sitting in the you’ve been sitting on, like, where the action happens?

Lara Banks 06:42
Yeah, it’s changed a lot. And I think that’s one thing that I don’t know if everyone really appreciates. The venture kind of investing world. On the allocator side was in some ways easier a decade ago, harder in that, like, there were only a handful of firms that you wanted to get access to, and if you couldn’t, then probably wasn’t worth doing. But that has really shifted, particularly in the last like, call it five to six years, where there’s a lot of new managers out there. I think we can talk about this later, but I do think AI will also create kind of a shift in the manager dynamic in terms of who is considered a premier manager, and generally, when you see the type of platform shifts, you do also see shifts in not just the companies, but the people who invest in those companies, and maybe even the way that you invest in companies, right? And so even the incubation model, um, that came of era, you know, 1015, years ago. And there’s, there are people before, but there are, I think, more of those. And so those types of shifts in, how do you invest what actually works? And then just even the opportunity set is, is really interesting. And so for us as allocators, it’s a, it’s a new challenge, because there are so many new managers every day and and then there’s the challenge around the size of a lot of these funds, and what does that mean for returns? Historically, smaller funds were really a power law. One or two big outliers drive your returns, but that’s shifting as these funds both get bigger and therefore go into, I’d say, like a different pocket of the market too. It’s not just the seed series, a, you know, first idea, pre revenue investing. There’s a whole nother stage of, I think, investing that is being incorporated into venture portfolios, which is a great opportunity, but also a challenge, of like, who is really great at that type of investing, and where should that skill set come from? It is something that we as alligators, continue to think about, and I think I’m very privileged in that we sit in this endowment style investing group. So there are people across all of the asset classes. I think this touches public equity, because some of these companies maybe would have been public 510 years ago. Sometimes it actually even touches the real asset space, because people are now going into hard assets and thinking about what they can do there. And then it obviously kind of starts to bridge into the buyout growth component. And so who should win in some of these segments that maybe feel like more real world services that traditionally you’d see your bio managers invest in, is something that we continue to ask ourselves, and I think that we’ll see some shifts over the next couple of years, as the market sells out.

Alexa Binns 12:59
One of the pieces of lingo that McKenna folks use is investable building blocks. Yes, do you? Do you mind giving us a little education on what that means for you?

Lara Banks 13:11
We have these portfolios that I mentioned, you know, we think about our endowment as having a couple of core asset classes, and the two bigger private ones are venture and buyout. And so we’ve had a number of our clients say, I just want to invest in a venture. I want to add that to a portfolio, or they want to mix and match. One thing we’re seeing a lot more is people thinking about their asset allocation as we think about what’s happening with endowments today, they might need to change their asset allocation to have less privates and have more liquidity. And so using those building blocks as a way to build your portfolio and have, you know, tailor the amount of privates that you want, I think, is really additive. And so, you know, while the endowment model is what we do is the fund we set that allocation, there’s an opportunity for people to say, hey, I want less privates. I want more privates, and I can build it myself.

Earnest Sweat 15:25
you can tell that the allocator role is changing a lot. Could you speak to some of the challenges and the responses that are needed from the role to actually be successful at it.

Lara Banks 15:46
I’d say it kind of breaks down to a couple of pieces. One is that this illiquidity component, in terms of how illiquid a particular venture has been, is something that I think we as allocators need to be better at explaining to the GPS, of like, why we’re allocating or not. One thing I’ve seen is that a lot of GPs are like, I don’t understand. Nobody is investigating what’s happening, and that’s definitely not the case. We’re continuing to invest. We have a budget that we run every year based off of the model, so we are continuing to invest, but it is meaning that if you hold assets for longer, that budget goes down because you are reinvesting the capital that comes back from distributions is generally the kind of recycling. And so that is something that I think is coming into play that a lot of allocators are having a hard time explaining to GPs who they want to invest with, but they just don’t have the budget because of that illiquidity. And I actually think we’re at a unique point where it has been so illiquid because we’ve had this pushing back of the IPO window, and what is needed to go public is a whole nother level of kind of maturity of company, and so I but I think that what’s coming is the secondary market that I kind of mentioned, both on LP, interest in funds, which we’ve seen a bit, but also in the companies themselves. And I know that samash wrote a little bit about this, but we’re seeing, I think, more of that opportunity set, and there’s more capital being built for that, which will, I think, alleviate this illiquidity, where we’ve started to model our funds at 18 years on the venture side, which is a very long time. I hope that that maybe shortens over time, but it’s because of this kind of pushing out of the window. So that’s one challenge. Like, how do I deal with illiquidity, and how do I think about the long term run rate of the asset class in terms of cash flow dynamics? And then second is this, like the proliferation of ideas and opportunities, especially with the backdrop of AI where everything is moving so quickly. I just feel like every day there’s something new. The models are changing. The opportunity set is growing, and so and then I think moats and barriers that you used to think of are no longer there. And even like, going to the market is changing a bit in the enterprise space. And so all of those things. If you say, like, Hey, I’m going to invest in this manager, because they’re great at go to market on, like, enterprise sales, and then you wake up, you know, two months later, and like that, it’s all, it’s just all plg motion that can be challenging for that manager and your portfolio. And so what do you think about, what are those modes? What are you investing in? And I think it’s probably even more so for you guys on the venture side, but it’s something that we think a lot about, like, what is something that’s defensible for our managers? And then on top of that, there are so many more, and they’re great people, and so that’s what we’re trying to figure out with the lower liquidity, how to kind of allocate that capital. And then I think the kind of what’s added, so that is just shifting in the talent pool across the platforms. And so there are even more people who are spinning out to do new, interesting things. And then a big question, like, which of the platforms will be able to retain their talent too, because that is really important, you know, you think about, you know, the front of the jersey versus the back of the jersey. And so a lot of people have built their own brands, and a lot of times, when we’re investing in some of these larger funds, it is still anchored on a couple of people. Obviously, the brand is very, very valuable, but there are a couple of people who kind of continue to win and push into some of these better categories, as like the leaders of these firms, though they might not be the managing partner, they are very additive. So lots of things going on, both on like New and then thinking about like, who is in your portfolio? Has that happened? Of long term running room, and we saw this, obviously, I was not investing in the.com era at McKenna, but we have partners who have and just that similar thing where you saw some of the established brands really kind of turn over at that time, and then some of them continue to kind of perpetuate and even just grow their franchises, and then new kind of startups come out of that, and more out of the global financial crisis, but you can see, kind of, Andreessen was kind of founded around that thrive a little bit past then. So there are opportunities in what is like a shift in the ecosystem to create new, enduring franchises. And I think that’s something that we’re really excited about, is being able to be day one with those people as they launch new ideas.

Alexa Binns 20:46
That was so helpful to understand the LP perspective while you’re managing your team, sort of looking at the second half of 2025 what? What goals do you all have? You know when, whether it’s related to your existing managers, whether it’s related to, you know, selecting new managers. I’m just curious about the, you know, what? What are the things that you’re trying to accomplish, so that GPS understands what your team is all about?

Lara Banks 21:17
We try and stay very consistent, and so it’s about finding new early stage managers that we think have a right to win, um, have that grit and hustle and are at the forefront, um, of kind of the market, if it’s AI and their kind of research, or if it’s other areas, um, you know, in those spaces. Um, the second thing is this idea on secondaries is doing more CO investments and secondaries at companies and LPS into the best, the best companies in our portfolio, and that, I think, is going to be really additive to the return that we can generate. And then the last thing that is a little bit off the run for you guys, but is growth equity. We put that into our venture portfolio. So companies that call it two to 10 million of ARR usually bootstrapped outside of the tech corridors, generally growing very quickly. But have, I think, a different exit path, something we’ve seen more of too, in terms of some founders want to not get on the venture kind of hamster wheel, and have to go for, you know, what is like now to go public at, you know, 10 plus billion dollar company, and they want to build something meaningful, but maybe has a different kind of profile, and so that’s been an area of interest and really strong returns for us. So we continue to look for talent in that space, but it’s a really hard job. It is going too far from places to find people who don’t really need your money to take it, but it’s been, I think, a really creative and interesting strategy.

Earnest Sweat 22:52
Now we’re going to take a quick break to speak with our

Jeremy Rich 22:55
sponsor. Hi, I’m Jeremy Rich, senior vice president on the catalyst 2045 team at SBB, a division of First Citizens Bank. For over four decades, SBB has been the financial partner of choice for the innovation economy. We understand the unique needs of founders, fund managers and investors building in fast moving, high growth sectors, because we’ve been there every step of the way through the catalyst 2045 team. We work closely with venture firms and institutional investors to help them grow their platforms, raise capital more efficiently and unlock new opportunities across the venture landscape. When you work with SBB, you’re not just getting a bank, you’re gaining a partner with deep sector knowledge, extensive networks and tools to help you scale. We’re proud to support swimming with allocators and the people shaping the future of venture.

Speaker 1 23:42
And now back to our LP interview.

Earnest Sweat 23:47
One thing that I’ve been thinking about as a GP is with these shifts, particularly with AI and all the things that you’ve mentioned that are changing, what’s going to be the archetype for a premier founder, and so you mentioned also how it changes our game. So what are some frameworks you’re thinking about with new managers, like, what is that archetype of someone who’s going to be successful over these next 20 years?

Lara Banks 24:21
One of my managers gave me this phrase is, like, you need to operate with more peripheral vision today than ever before. And it really resonated with me, because it’s something I think about actually, as an allocator of like, my venture managers are investing in, you know, AI enabled services, roll ups. They are investing in software that will replace, you know, some of the call centers. And so there’s just so much kind of interrelated and I think that’s the same thing true for these event venture manager and AI is it’s changing so quickly that I think you need to be more of and I don’t want to say like an operator, and that you have to found a company, but you need. Have that kind of operating product mindset and have to be in the Tools tinkering. It’s something that I’ve been working on myself. And I think trying to push our team to is just like, Let’s try these things like a lot of our managers are building and investing in companies that they’re supposed to go to, kind of our ecosystem. Let’s see what we think. Like, what are, you know, demoing those products as something that we’ve done a lot more? And I think that’s the case for some of these venture managers. What I’ve really appreciated is that they are really in the weeds on just trying out new products, trying to build things, and we can all build now, which is really fun. I’ve been doing a little bit of things on my own, and just even more artistic things that I’m really not an artistic person, but trying to use mid journey and others to kind of create things that I couldn’t have done in the past and be more crafty. It’s not trying to up my mom game in some ways, but those are the things that I think it will be really important, and like, have to have your ear to the ground on what’s changing, and that will then lead you to the people too, because I feel like there’s so much going on in terms of who is coming out of different labs and and even just like organizations. So I think that, plus understanding the needs and the client base of like, whatever your your companies are going after, I think that the people have done a really good job of, we had Gary tan speak at our annual meeting, is like some of the best companies are, you know, almost like living with their customers, almost like a consultant, right? Like sit next to them, understand what their pain points are, understand how you can improve. And so maybe it’s a level removed from, I think, the venture managers, but I think that’s something that we can see them do more of. And the other thing that I think has been harder, maybe it’s kind of as I think about AI in particular, is concentration is hard in this environment, generally, you know, the role of thumb is like 20 ish companies and any sort of ownership that’s been hard when there’s been, you know, 15, maybe more different applications in a category. I do think that’s changing a bit, but that’s one thing I can appreciate is just, it’s felt like the ground is shifting so quickly that it’s hard to make a meaningful bet unless it’s like, superior talent that you just, like, know it when you see it. But even then, it’s like, there’s just, it’s a ground game. And it is like you have to be running every day so hard, which I know that you guys see, and then I can appreciate it. It’s not an easy job to know where to go all in on, which is something that, not that we say, like early stage, you should go all in on, or very early, but you do need to have certain amount of conviction, and I think portfolio construction, just to manage it, especially if you’re taking boards.

Alexa Binns 29:16
Do you have any advice for managers on navigating these cycles, whether from a fundraising perspective, or, you know, in your case, maybe you’re suggesting to them, let us go invest rather than raising an opportunity fund. Yes,

Lara Banks 29:33
definitely that I’d say, like, there are a couple things. One is, I would like to go to your true north in terms of, like, what is the strategy that you want? And like, where you most resonate with founders and have that pull. It’s like, why is someone calling Alexa? Like, why do you know like that, that goes into that, versus like, what do LPS want? And this is not like that. There are elements. I think that you should listen to laps on. Portfolio construction, at least understanding portfolio construction, you know the time to invest, how long that should take, and things of that nature. And I think there are some elements also on exit that people haven’t maybe fully done in terms of just taking a little bit of chips off the table, that’s my perspective in certain situations, and not, not broad strokes. So those are things like, I just go back to, there are so many LPs that are going to tell you a lot of different things, and we all have our different needs, right? And so, like, there’s an element of understanding the customer, but also understanding what you can bring unique to the ecosystem. Because, to be honest, like, we don’t need that many more new venture firms, right? So, like, what is it that you bring that nobody else can do? And I think that’s one thing I tell people to lean into. The second thing that’s kind of in this is it’s a little bit of the other side of the coin, but I’m thinking about, when do you take chips off the table for some of your winners? And I’m not saying so all of your winners, I there, there’s a power law in venture. I completely understand that, but there is something to managing the IRR of these funds and the cash flow that you bring back to your LPs. And so I think everybody’s been thinking about dpi, but I think there’s an element of like that actually generates, actually a higher net IRR. If you can exit a small portion of some of those winners earlier, and also just think about like, what’s the goal for return? Is the goal forward? Return, 30% IRS, 20% IRS. And so that’s something that I think people didn’t really understand, or think it’s hard for us in 2021 to not think that everything was going to be, you know, a $100 billion company, but, but obviously that’s not the case. And then the last thing is just like on fundraising, like, if you’re not hitting your target, just get going, you know, like, I really believe that proof is in the pudding. And even if you’re slightly below what you want, it doesn’t really matter, as long as you can get access to those companies. I think we really lean into people who are able to get access and are kind of the founder’s first choice for their call on strategic items, rather than, hey, I got X ownership. Obviously we’d love to have all of those things, but if you can’t get there, I think just get going and prove out that you are bringing something valuable to the table that others can’t. So those are the things that I would think about. And also, just like I think not, don’t spin her wheels too much with a lot of investors. I think trying to kind of pare back here, your time there, there’s, there’s just so many people to talk to, and your best time is spent. I think finding new founders and building your own views and relationships there.

Alexa Binns 35:40
Are there characteristics in a growth manager that you are specifically looking for?

Lara Banks 35:46
I say growth equity in particular. I mean grit and hustle is like, probably the two most important things is just a ground game. And I know that’s the key. Is on a venture as well. But you really have to be in person to a whole host of places, and now that everyone actually AI, as well as like, allowing these people to source, like any great company that you would want, the company kind of tiering, I think, is pretty well known in terms of where do you want to be Investing. The harder thing is getting access and getting them to take your capital. And so that’s something that I think we just continue to focus on people who have that willingness to go the extra mile, and it’s not a glamorous job. It is like, you’re not going first class to some beautiful place, like you’re going to and you have to, like a train to a car ride and like, so it is. It is a lot more, and it’s like building relationships. And I think going back to what Arne said, it’s, it’s about building those kind of personal connections, one of our managers was saying, like, I probably need a little bit less analyst, because of the AI sourcing tooling, where, historically, these firms had a lot of younger professionals like pounding the phones and calling. That can be more automated, but you need more people, actually, at the more mid level, senior level, being able to win the hearts of some of these founders. Why should I take capital? And to the point earlier is that, like people are still looking at 2020, 21 valuations, and like, we’re not exactly there. And so how do you make sure that they’re willing to take the fair price that generates the right return for both them and for you? Because in these cases, you’re a minority investor, and they’re going to be driving the next chapter of the investment.

Earnest Sweat 37:41
LoRa, and that one scenario that you brought up about, like, cool land, it’s like the sharks versus the jets of PE and venture, I guess venture would be the jets and sharks would definitely be PE, but that’s kind of always been the paradigm I’ve seen in my 10 years in venture. But do you think there should be more cross pollenization, especially with ventures like? The old adage has always been like, hey, 50% of your capital should go to your top 10% quartile of companies, but there’s a lot of other good companies. Should that be? Should there be more like engagement with PE for

Lara Banks 38:20
Those, yeah, it made me think twice. One is that I do think there’s going to be more pairing of private equity and venture talent, and I could conceive of a new firm creating a fund like that, or just like a whole new firm, starting with people from both of those disciplines. We’ve actually introduced a number of our violent managers to some of our venture managers, for them to just cross pollinate ideas, because some of these can be sold into existing private equity backed businesses. So that’s something that I think we as LPS can be additive to and thinking about. Let’s not actually go at it head to head. Let’s go at it together and build something even better and bigger. So that’s one thing I’m thinking about. It’s like, what does that profile of a firm look like? Because there are very different personality types, as you mentioned, but they’re kind of, they are now going after similar businesses. So how can you make the cultural elements work really hard? Culture is actually hard, one of the hardest things to do. But in terms of, like, investing, we are seeing so on the venture side there, I think some companies that we know, like, are just not going to work. And that’s part of the venture game, is like, you’re just going to have 50% of your companies or whatever that are just like, not those needle movers, and so we are seeing more private equity start to invest in those and getting to meetings of minds on valuations. But a lot of personalities involved, a lot of kind of inertia, not wanting to take a mark down if they hadn’t taken it. I think a lot of people have taken marks. But then there’s also just. The founder ethos and the team, in terms of, like, where do they want to be? You remember, like, it’s actually, I have to remind myself, that these venture managers do not have control. So I’m like, oh, you should just roll this up and like, you know, it’ll be, you know, a lot better, and you won’t be competing. But that’s, that’s the armchair kind of discussion versus the reality of the people in the next year. And so I think we are starting now kind of, really three years into this downturn, on outside of, like AI, which I think is this whole nother wave, there are a lot of companies that are having a hard time and are, you know, they’re making it through, but aren’t going to see that same type of kind of accelerated growth that allows them to go public or be a takeout from one of the venture back kind of, I think, what are now generational companies, and so I think you’re going to see see more of that in in the coming years. I’ve

Alexa Binns 40:59
I always thought an incredible buyout strategy would be focusing on historically under funded founders. The truth of raising as a female founder, 2% of capital goes to female founders. That means they’ve built businesses that have awesome fundamentals and they have no grandiose ideas of their valuations, because they have been hit in the face by unfair valuations time and time again. So I’ve always thought, oh, man, I would go, I would go sniff out incredible female founded businesses if I were doing a buyout fund.

Lara Banks 41:36
Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think anchoring is really important, right? Which I should actually tell women, do not do that. Do not anchor, like, go look at what your male counterparts are getting anchor there instead of what, what you feel like you’re seeing. But that that is

Alexa Binns 41:51
very true. Yeah, if you haven’t been able to spend money frivolously, you’re going to be running a really tight ship already. It’s like it was a great company to acquire. Yeah, yes, exactly.

Lara Banks 42:01
And that’s actually, that’s why we like growth equity, is that we usually had to bootstrap it. And you know, that leads to the right principles on day one. And I think, and that’s actually been one of the biggest benefits, I again, outside of AI, because it does feel like we’re living in two different worlds of this downturn is that people have to live within their means and they learn. And I think we’ve seen some of the companies actually performing better on going to market with fewer sales people and just being able to be super efficient and understanding to use a little bit of plg as well. And so it doesn’t work for everybody. But yeah, they think there is an element of scarcity providing, I think innovation and resourceful

Earnest Sweat 42:44
as it’s like a theme for millennials living in between within your means, it’s just like a theme for us right now. Yeah, and it made me think of this article Alexa sent me about millennials and entering their mid life crises. Anyway, On that note, one thing I would love to talk to you about, kind of the final point is, with all the things going on, and you mentioned, despite kind of the challenges of fundraising, we’re seeing more and more spin outs happen and people enter the market. How does an emerging manager, from your view, actually stand out?

Lara Banks 43:26
Yeah, this is always such a hard question, because it’s that Je ne sais quoi that does really, I think, capture you, which I think you guys have probably seen as well, in terms of just you meeting certain founders and like, wow, this person is really impressive. But the other thing is, going back to what we talked about with grit and hunger like that is something that I always am very have a very keen eye towards, because I realized that this is a really hard business, and there are going to be highs and lows, and you need to have that ability to kind of work through that. The second thing that that like, outside of, let’s say, the track record, we’ll put that aside for now, is their Why is really important to me, and this, again, like that resonates, I think, as they work with founders and kind of then also push themselves to learn and always be trying and getting to the forefront of this industry. And so like, why? What is your purpose? What do you bring? And that actually then goes to your ability to win. Because I think if you have a unique why and something that makes you a partner of choice, then there’s that pull. And so we really look for that pull from founders of like, I want this person to work with me. I think that is something we spend a lot of time on as it relates to, kind of that ability to win. It’s like there is an outreach, almost for this person to be part of that. You know as well, there are more I’d like. Hard things in terms of, you know, track record, quality of companies, quality of people. Really, like, we spend a lot of time thinking about network and like, what is the depth of the network that this person has that will then be their sourcing kind of, I in special sauce, because sometimes it is just, and I think you guys have done this with the podcast, but, like, there are ways to kind of get, so get to the top of mind, and a lot of that is through the network that you’ve built. And how have you done that, either through operating, you know, being a founder, or being at an old at a larger brand in the past, so lots of different things. And then we do spend time thinking about how to improve the quality of the companies that they’ve been involved with in the past. So I really like to anchor more on the soft elements, because those are the things that I think people don’t realize how important they are over the long term. Remember, we’re doing 18 year partnerships. So that’s a long time. It’s longer than if you’ve actually been married for almost 15 years. But so it’s a long time. And so I, you know, want to make sure that we have the right person that’s working