Alexa Binns 00:09
Michael, we’ve just heard your very relevant background. You’ve got a hedge fund, family office and now, Loyola, can you tell us any through line, any learnings going from Publix to now, focusing on privates?

Mike Kakenmaster 00:30
Yeah, I think, you know, probably the biggest through line, obviously, being in the LPC my entire career. It’s kind of the only thing I’ve known. But you know, you look at kind of the different things I’ve done at every stage of my career, and it’s just kind of a constant building of knowledge and skills. When I started out at the hedge fund fund, my role was very data and quantitative driven. I think that’s been a pretty consistent through line, for better or worse, I say I always start with, what do the numbers tell us? And this isn’t, I know we’re going to talk about venture but this is kind of every asset class, because today I’m still looking at hedge funds and public equity funds and private equity funds across, you know, the spectrum of venture growth and buyout. So it’s always, I’m always curious as to, you know, what sort of data do we have, and what can we learn from that, and how does that kind of build and structure our due diligence and our understanding of a manager, and kind of what questions we want to ask, but things we want to monitor, so very, you know, data, a high emphasis on data has been a big part. But, you know, starting out the fund of hedge funds, obviously you’re looking at, typically, you know, equity or credit driven strategies. These are, you know, different degrees of trading and portfolio construction. And so you learn a lot about, I think, just capital markets from that lens, you know, you are able to, later on, join a family office that had initially brought me on to support the kind of their hedge fund and more liquid exposure. So that included some public equities. But over time that grew into just anything that was a fund commitment or kind of external commitment, they also did some direct investing. And so, you know, learning new asset classes like buyout and private credit. And, you know, real estate was, was, was a kind of big part of my earlier time at this family office and, and then, you know, more recently. I can’t say more recently, because it’s been five years now at loyal, which is crazy to think about crazy in a good way, I should say. But you know, that gave me the opportunity to take all these different, you know, learnings and experiences and kind of tie them into one and, and really support, you know, a portfolio that’s going through a lot of change and, and kind of helped usher in, kind of the this new version of the Investment Office here at Loyola.

Earnest Sweat 03:14
One question I want to talk about is just like, What’s kept you there from this, this side of the table, and what keeps you interested in making fun investments.

Mike Kakenmaster 03:43
It’s, it’s just, you know, how dynamic it can be. And again, I’m speaking from the seat of a generalist, essentially. And you know, we’re a smaller team here at Loyola. It’s four total, and so everyone’s got to participate and and, you know, join in on calls across different asset classes, different parts of the market, different geographies. And so you just, you get a very broad exposure to, you know, the world and capital markets and how different businesses work. And you know, you get to speak with some pretty intelligent people who are subject matter experts, right? And you get to hear from them why they think you know, why they do what they do, why they think their particular strategy or area of focus is interesting and and you can, you know, if you want to, you can meet someone new every day and hopefully learn something every day. Maybe I’m not learning something new every day, but, but there’s certainly no shortage of just knowledge out there that I am, you know, lucky enough to have access to or to, the most part, get access to, and I think just for me, specifically, like I’ve really been fortunate to work with some awesome firms, some really. Cool people, you know, have bosses that cared a lot about my career and kind of my, you know, path forward and how I developed, and it’s and that keeps you, keeps you there, right? I think, you know, the subject matter is very interesting. I’ve had the benefit of, you know, evolving and kind of broadening my horizons when it comes to different asset classes. And along the way, I’ve worked with some really cool people that that have been supportive and, you know, really, you know, cared about my career so so that that’s been a big, you know, big part of my experience as an allocator,

Earnest Sweat 05:42
Mike, is there an advantage that you see today from all of your time as in general, is in the different asset classes, like, obviously, you know our show mostly the audience is centered around venture and growth equity. Is there anything by seeing what kind of what you see in hedge funds and, you know, maybe private equity, lower middle market, other areas of credit that has helped you with developing a thesis or see trends earlier in venture and growth.

Mike Kakenmaster 06:16
I think it’s, it’s just knowing that there’s more to life than one asset class. It’s, it’s, it’s interesting, because when I went from the fund of funds to the family office, you know, I maybe naively, was just very much focused on the hedge fund can solve a lot of problems in a portfolio and and that’s not, that’s wrong, you know, it’s flat out drunk. It there’s a lot of other factors that go into what a portfolio needs. Whether it’s a, you know, broadly diversified hedge fund portfolio, or it’s a family office, or it’s an endowment, there are different LP types that have different needs, and so using one asset class to solve. That is, it’s not efficient. Frankly, it took me a while to kind of get over that hub. I think there were a lot of conversations I remember having working at this family office and saying, Oh, I think there’s a really interesting hedge fund strategy. They do this and that, and in the family be like, Well, why? Why do we need it like, if they’re doing, you know, long, short equity, why don’t you just be long equity? I don’t know if it seems like that. And I think that’s been, you know, an eye opening experience. And as as time has gone on, you kind of realize that there’s, there’s many different ways to build a portfolio, and a lot of different ways you can structure it based on kind of the you know, constraints of of the you know, the stakeholder base that you’re that you’re allocating on behalf of. And then the other piece too, I think the benefit of being a generalist is you can kind of understand the other side of an opportunity. Just as a maybe generic example, when I speak to this goes both ways. When I speak to a buyout fund that’s investing in some sort of industrial company, and say they’re manufacturing widgets, and say, Oh, that’s interesting. They think they have a better way of making these widgets cheaper and expanding distribution. But I also then hear from a venture capital fund that they’re investing in a company that is coming up with a, you know, a way to make those widgets without people with, you know, using different materials. Again, this is a very broad, generic example, but you can kind of go to both of them and say, you know, what’s the risk, what’s the opportunity? Do you know about this company that’s coming up with a new way for venture capitalists? Do you understand that there’s these incumbents that are doing things and have the distribution and have the financial backing, that that’s kind of what you’re going up against, and you can kind of play that, that knowledge off of each other. You see that also in kind of the private credit markets, private credit versus, you know, more buyout strategies. And you see buyout funds kind of telling me one thing about the terms they’re getting and from lenders, and lenders telling me one thing about the terms they’re getting with these sponsors. And sometimes they don’t often line up. And so you can can build a more honest picture of what’s going on in a particular asset class, which you know should work to our benefit, and unless it’s just kind of risk reward, I think you understand it’s it’s interesting because I worked in hedge funds during a kind of coming out of A period of time where hedge funds were very popular and saw a lot of asset growth, and then kind of post GFC interest rates low hedge funds maybe not the most compelling thing or interesting thing to do, and a lot of that interest moved over to private markets, and I think you’re kind. Seeing that flip a little bit. Hedge funds seem to be, at least in my circles, getting a little bit more attention. I don’t have to tell you, Youtube, but, you know, issues with liquidity and private markets, I think, are starting to have a real impact. So, you know, things can it’s, you know, these trends are never permanent and so being a generalist, you’re able to kind of move, you know, slowly, in and out of things as you see fit.

Alexa Binns 10:30
I want to know if you agree with that shift. You’re seeing this trend where, like, money is leaving all sorry, money is leaving the private practice a little bit and heading back into hedge funds. And are you feeling that draw? Um,

Mike Kakenmaster 10:48
So I guess I’ll caveat this answer, because we’re in a little bit of a different position in that our private capital allocation has grown, and so we’re kind of filling that delta, whereas our hedge fund allocation has remained stable. So Loyola hasn’t seen a large, you know, migration of, you know, hedge funds to private equity and vice versa. But, you know, I just, I’m a part of a lot of different LP conversations, and I, I’d say, when folks look at, you know, where does the incremental dollar go? It’s, is it, it’s becoming tougher to maybe justify doing another private equity fund, especially if they’re not seeing the distributions. Venture obviously, is a longer hold period, and it’s even longer than probably folks initially expected. And, and you look at hedge fund strategies and, and this is also coincided with the real emergence, and I think domination, of multi strat hedge funds that have offered good returns at low correlation and low beta. And so it’s these all weather strategies that perform quite well, and that’s been a big draw. And I think similar to how you see in some private markets, where bigger firms kind of account for a lot of the fundraising, you see a similar thing happening on the hedge fund side, but that’s, you know, they think that’s also there’s there’s when you look at who’s coming out and launching new hedge funds, it’s folks spinning out of these larger platforms that want to kind of do what their narrow sleeve was, you know, just individually. And those are getting a lot of attention because they have the pedigree, they understand risk management, they have some sort of track record that they can point to. And so for an LP that wants to do hedge funds, it’s something you can, you know, see as an interesting alternative in your portfolio. So, but, yeah, we’re not, we’re not feeling that pull right now, but, but, you know, we’ve certainly been, certainly in our hedge fund portfolio. We’ve been looking at ways to exploit just other inefficient markets, whether it’s emerging market credit or even even kind of the up and down, kind of the energy gap stack, looking at ways to play that market.

Earnest Sweat 14:05
Mike, when we had the prep conversation, you spoke a little about about before or when joining LoRa, it was an opportunity kind of the kind of build from from scratch, and we have a number of allocators that reach out to us, or that have been on the podcast that have faced this, this situation based on, you know, the changing of the, you know, these pendulum swings, right? And the one, the one that you were mentioning just just a minute ago, I’m confident it’s going to happen again when this IPO market opens up again. So just, could you just speak to what that experience looked like from the outside, and kind of like, learnings from like, when you do have kind of a blank slate, or, like, are we going to change the strategy, how to approach that as an allocator?

Mike Kakenmaster 14:54
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you know for us, our situation was, was really me. Meaningful increase in the private capital allocation. So historically, it was around 10% and they, our Investment Committee, decided to double it to 20 and this was, this was right around when our current CIO joined. And, you know, along with that change in allocation was also just kind of the, you know, the remit to go and for our CIO to kind of figure out how to do that and what she wanted to do, and how she wanted to approach it. And so, you know, both her and I came from backgrounds where most of our private capital experience was either in the buyout space or on the credit side. Neither of us really spend much time in venture I think we both had, you know, within buyouts, had a kind of an affinity for lower middle market buyout so that was, you know, place that we knew that we were going to spend time but, but wanted to really, you know, utilize the full extent of, you know, what it means to be an endowment and have a really long investment horizon. And, you know, venture should be on the table, but, but, I think what we were cognizant of, and in this is, you know, both us, but also the support of our committee, kind of telling us, you know, you don’t need to rush into doing this. Like, again, we have such a long, you know, this is a perpetual investment vehicle, and so don’t feel like you need to get us from 10% to 20% in two years. As a matter of fact, that’s probably the wrong way to do it. You know, this is, you both know, like markets are going to ebb and flow. An important thing, I think, is to just consistently participate in private markets. You’re never going to be able to time the right vintage and, you know, the thing that you learn as you commit to these funds is, there’s the vintage year, and then there’s when they invest the years that they invest the capital. And sometimes that vintage year isn’t the best representation of when they deployed most of the capital. So, you know, we went in with a pretty, I’d say, conservative budget. You know, knew, knowing that we would take our time growing into this allocation, we started with looking at the buyout space, because, again, that’s what we knew.

Alexa Binns 18:29
I would love to hear the story of those early days of sort of getting your feet wet in ventures like taking those initial pitches. What’s that story like,

Mike Kakenmaster 18:42
yeah, it’s, you know, you kind of go where you think you should start, which is who, even though, like, you know, you have access to a lot of research and and, you know, newsletters and anything you can, kind of derive, kind of, who are some bigger players in the venture landscape. And you start there, you know, again, like the LP network, and just leaning on some folks that we knew to give us some ideas and just talk about where to start. I think it was really helpful. But you know that there’s also kind of this unique factor of when we started being in kind of late 2021 and early 2022 and having these conversations with GPS, that it was just a hot fundraising environment, both for the managers and for underlying companies. And you would have a conversation with a firm that everyone would recognize, and they’d say, Well, can you get your work done in a month, and can you commit to our suite of funds? And you know, at your check size, we need you to really. Really basically triple it for it to work. That’s a little bit unique to us, because, you know, at our size, we’re like, a three or $4 million commitment into funds. And a lot of these groups like you, we need your entire budget for the year to make it work. You know, again, it goes back to like, not feeling forced to to make these commitments and impressing, you know, the gas pedal down on the venture side too, too quickly and so we said no and took our time. And, you know, through our network, I got introduced to folks that kind of led us to this side of the market, on the smaller and emerging manager side, and have learned a lot.

Earnest Sweat 23:30
Is there one mistake during that period, or faux pas that you were very critical of in your viewpoint now, and that you’d like to share with the other allocators to make sure they miss.

Mike Kakenmaster 23:45
No, it’s just, it’s, it’s one of those where, I think just not being familiar with just the speed that you know, it’s, you kind of say, hey, like we’re interested. And maybe that’s interpreted as I can move quickly and, and that does you know, again, we’re a small team, and we’re trying to do all this on our own, and so the diligence timeline can be a little bit lengthier than maybe what they expected. And so, you know, it’s an, I don’t know if this is where GPS just, again, through their lens of working with, with founders, you kind of, you make an investment on the best available information and in the period of time that you have. And you know, for us, like, I think we feel more comfortable saying no and just building a relationship, but, but, yeah, I think I’ve learned just to, kind of, you know, with that, with every interaction you have with any fund manager across asset class is just continuing to be very upfront and transparent with kind of what you think and what your, you know, ability is to to do work and what your interest levels are, because, you know, everyone says it, but you know, a quick No. Is, is, is really valuable. So we try to try to do our best to get those quick notes back to GPS when

Alexa Binns 25:10
One of the things that you had mentioned that was an aha for me too, was not falling in love with track record, and I’d love for you to share why that performance data for early stage venture, for you, you realized is can be a little misleading.

Mike Kakenmaster 25:26
Yeah, I think, like, it’s it? Well, I think there’s a lot of caveats. There’s a lot of nuances that come with a track record, especially in venture. I think, you know, the first, and that’s always kind of a pet peeve of mine is when someone says we were a top decile, you know, 2022 or 2023 vintage. And it looks, sounds great, but I don’t know much has happened, right to say, like, maybe you’ve had a couple of markups, but it doesn’t really tell you a full picture. And, you know, I think the thing with with venture that that you, that we’ve had to get used to, is that understanding that you don’t really know what you got from a performance perspective for several years, you know, there’s, there’s an interesting stat with with buyout funds, where you kind of, you see that the tvpi of a fund, pretty much peaks around year seven or eight, and from there it can maybe go down a little bit, go up a little bit, but you kind of know where the funds going to end up at that at that point, for a venture fund, by year seven or eight, like that’s maybe when you’re starting to Really see like value creation accrue to the fund, whether it’s exits or substantial markups. You know, we kind of had this conversation internally recently where we were looking at, you know, a track record for one of our VCs and saying, oh, like there’s actually, you know, this isn’t kind of the case. I’ll kind of rephrase this, but we looked at the numbers and kind of concluded that it’s not like we shouldn’t expect that this is the final performance number of the fund for the rest of our holding. Obviously, the IRR can change with with just distributions and timing, but, yeah, just just knowing that you can look at these, you know, these, these funds and a lot of the performance data is is based on marks that that may or may not be warranted, especially when you’re looking at pre seeded seed, you go, you know, You could have a nice markup at the Series A, but that doesn’t mean the company is going to be around in five years. I think the stat is that over a third of companies I raise a Series A, Series A still fail. So you really, you don’t know what you have, and especially when it’s only a couple years after you commit, you really don’t know what you have. And even looking at, you know, we try to look at fundamental underlying portfolio company operating metrics, and that might tell you a different story, and could be a one of growth, but, but again, like if companies are still, you know, very early in their in their life, they might not be revenue, to speak of they’re still building or what have you. So, yeah, we try not to get too tethered to what that performance number looks like. And I think I kind of mention a little bit on, like how deployment and how we’re committing capital, then how the GPs are deploying that capital, looking at things on a vintage year by vintage year basis. Don’t maybe tell the best story we try to, you know, look at it on a deal by deal basis, or a year by year basis. If they’re more of a high volume, you know, venture, venture investor, or have a longer track record where we can say, you know, how have they deployed capital year over year, and how have just those annual cohorts performed? Because, again, like we’ve seen situations where, if it’s a 20, call it a 2025 vintage, because they did one deal and they called capital, but the rest of the money is being deployed in 26 and 27 and so, like, really, what? What’s the best benchmark for that? So it’s it’s tricky, it’s nuanced, and you have to kind of look at it a few different ways,

Earnest Sweat 29:30
digging deeper in that nuance. What are questions or tactics that you try to employ to get more of that data on projecting the success of this fund manager, do you have any favorite questions or approaches?

Mike Kakenmaster 29:47
Well, I think it’s, it’s, you know, it’s kind of going through their portfolio, and maybe if they have reserves where they double down and kind of understanding, you know, what their map is. There. I think one of the newer learnings that I’ve encountered in my venture capital experiences is this concept of reserves, and what’s the right amount, and is there a right amount for smaller funds versus bigger funds? And I’m sure we’ve all seen the LinkedIn post from people saying, if it’s a smaller fund. Don’t use reserves. And I tend to, you know, buy that a little bit. I think there’s especially if you have a three year investment period where, you know, the first deal might be coming back for their next round, and you’re still deploying into other first investments. And so how do you judge, you know, is it worth putting capital here versus something new? But, but, yeah, for us, when we look at, you know, how they deploy capital, it’s, it’s a little bit more about, you know, the decisions they make when they are able to invest more, and whether they do or not like when it’s, when it’s, you know, looking at the the investment performance. It’s all about, you know, how did I think, for early stage ventures, it’s, you know, how did you build that portfolio versus kind of, how it’s done? I think seeing markups is great, and having really strong co investors is a good signal. But, but, you know, we’re curious to know, like, how are they, how are these companies growing? Are they doing so in a kind of capital efficient manner? Is this something that’s going to be capital intensive down the line and maybe dilutes our ownership? And so it’s, so it’s, it’s very situational dependent. But yeah, I always kind of, especially in those early days, you know, what’s the what the milestones are these, these, these founders, these companies hitting and is that kind of on plan, Off Plan? You know, that gives you a good sense of maybe how performance is going to look down the road

Alexa Binns 31:51
and since getting started, this is your 10 year. Sorry, you’re five years in. Started initially with a fund of funds, a great place to learn. Are you actively vetting managers now, and what’s the sweet spot for Loyola?

Mike Kakenmaster 32:05
Yeah, so, so I’d say we’re not, we’re trying to emphasize primary commitments. We’re really happy with our fund to fund partner and he’s been super supportive of how we go about building our portfolio and really trying to, you know, our goal is to, you know, have most of the commitments through kind of direct, directly into funds. And so, you know, our process, I’d say we’re, it’s a bit of a barbell. We do definitely emphasize that that cohort of smaller and emerging managers, I’d say emerging managers, is something that across the portfolio, you know, even outside of private capital, we we emphasize here at Loyola, I think there’s a lot, there’s, there’s, obviously there’s been a ton written about The benefits of backing managers early from a performance perspective, and backing folks that are smaller. But I think those things resonate with us. But also I think it’s the relationship that we build. I think it’s, it’s just again, like we’re not going to be your biggest LP, assuming that, you know, I think our kind of minimum fund size is, call it around 30 million. But, you know, we’re never going to be that really chunky LP for you, but hopefully we can be an LP that understands what you do and how you do it, and ask good questions, and, you know, be supportive for for multiple fund vintages, but so anyway, so that’s so that’s really drawn us to that smaller and emerging manager segment. But there’s, I think, funds that are a bit larger, that do interesting things as well. And so you look at our portfolio, and you’ll see a handful of names that call it a $150 million to $250 million fund, and they’re just, they’re kind of deploying a different playbook. Obviously, they’re, they’re trying to lead deals. They’re really going for high ownership. You know, maybe these firms have bigger teams. So they approach forcing with maybe more of a research driven, thematic lens and network driven. But you know, it all kind of comes down to, what is that portfolio, you know, fund model look like, and what sort of assumptions need to be made to to generate a good venture return, which for us, you know, we we think table stakes 3x but I think people would be, would probably laugh at that.
Alexa Binns 35:18
why are you doing the other stuff that makes

Mike Kakenmaster 35:20
us Yeah, what’s Yeah, how does the other stuff come into play? But, but yeah. So going back to the original question, I think we’re, you know, we want to see GPS that has a really robust network, because at the end of the day, it’s about access. And again, we’re focused primarily on the early stage, so pre seed and seed strategies, maybe they’ll start at the series A and so access is key. You know, the common refrain of see pick win, and think you kind of got to see them first and have an appropriate network to see the right deals for you as an investor. And, you know, interesting founders are very important. So we, we want to, you know, see that there’s something there that has, you know, some, some durability to it, whether it’s you got a network of other investors, you were a former operator, and so you have a founder network, and or, or you just Yeah, or yeah, just, it’s a, it’s a broad, robust pool of people that you can tap into and see interesting, interesting companies and get warm introductions. So, you know, you can’t tease all that out from a pitch deck. I think everyone kind of puts their best foot forward when it comes to what their network looks like. Looks like and where they see deals, but, through conversations and references, you can really tease that out. So, so, yeah, so try to lean towards smaller, emerging managers. The fund size kind of makes sense for the strategy, and you have to kind of have a compelling, you know, reason to access good deals.

Earnest Sweat 37:05
A lot is going on in the world today, which I think is an understatement of the century, but with respect to endowments and smaller endowments, could you help our audience of emerging managers understand, when partnering with a smaller endowment, what the advantages are. What do you believe the advantages are, and how do they fit within the LP stack today?

Mike Kakenmaster 37:30
Yeah, well, I think there’s a lot of advantages from our side of the table, being the allocator, right? Just access to strategies that I think are inherently a little bit more interesting, those smaller funds that can, you know, whether it’s buyout and you’re looking at small companies, it’s a very inefficient part of the market. You know, if you’re investing in a small cap public equity manager or a micro cap public equity manager, where that’s a super inefficient place to find deals and interesting companies, and you can do that. And when you get too big, you kind of have to move outside that sweet spot and with that, you know, so you don’t impact liquidity. So we do not have to write huge checks. We can, we can find these interesting funds, and interesting strategies and make it a meaningful part of our portfolio, I’d say too. Not always the case, but as some oftentimes has been the case, where we speak with the GP that I think is very popular, and the fundraiser is going to be pretty tight and clean, and you know, they asked us, what’s your check? Can I say, oh, you know, we will do three or 4 million. And they are, you kind of see a little bit of relief come over them. They can say, Oh, that’s not that bad. We can find room for that. Again. It’s, it’s not always the case. We’ve certainly been told no before, but, but being able to sneak in to some funds is an advantage, you know, I’d say, you know, kind of flipping it around to the GP, having an endowment and or having, you know, LPs that are kind of serving, you know, higher purpose. So for us, it’s education, and, you know, it’s providing the best, you know, climate and universe, environment for and resources for the students at Loyola. I think that that means a lot. It means a lot to us. Hopefully it means a lot to them. And so them doing well allows us to, you know, generate good returns, is helpful in that effort. But I would think the thing I’d say is, despite, you know, as being a smaller endowment, we still have the same, you know, requests of GPS as everyone else. We want transparency. You want access to the team or the manager, and it’s got to be timely, it’s got to be somewhat detailed. It’s, I don’t think you can get by in today’s, you know, allocate or fund world without really giving LP something, even if you have a great track record. I know that they can be a little bit guarded with their portfolio data, but it doesn’t have to be something you send out every quarter. It can be a conversation that you have just just access is important. So we’re never going to kind of let managers kind of relax when it comes to transparency, because we need to know, because we need to report to our committee who reports to the broader, like the broader, you know, board of the university, and so it’s important to know what we own. And just because we’re a smaller check doesn’t mean we should have access to that, not saying we’ve run into that situation or that issue much but, but I think it’s always important to to say

Alexa Binns 41:09
final thoughts, any advice for other smaller endowments, foundations or or family offices that are just getting started on Their Venture Program?

Mike Kakenmaster 41:20
Yeah, take your time. It’s these, these investments take a long time to play out, and you can definitely get caught up in just kind of the whirlwind of GP introductions and people pitching you on your fund. I mean, I it’s, it’s still, there’s, there’s no shortage of early stage venture capital funds, which I’m not saying is a bad thing, but, you know, I could spend most of my time speaking to to managers and and, you know, a lot of folks seem sharp and interesting and have have a value proposition that’s compelling, and yeah, but you can’t do it. You can’t invest in all these things, and you can’t and you shouldn’t do it all right away. And so taking your time, having a, I think a strict commitment budget helps. We every year we come in with this is how much we can commit to venture, how much we can commit to buy out and and that’s kind of good to have those guard rails, because we don’t want to see ourselves going too far if we, if we miss it to the you know, if we’re kind of short, that’s maybe not the worst, but if we’re way over, then that could Be a bit of concern. So, so, so I’d say, you know, take your time, have a good, strict commitment budget, and make sure that, make sure that you’re kind of in the market consistently. If you’re looking at emerging managers, or you want to do emerging managers, think screening on performance is probably not the best method. I think leaning on your network and talking to people, maybe not like me. I mean, we’re still new at it, but we might have some insight or input. But leaning on other LPs that have been doing venture for longer is is a great place to just pick up, you know, some interesting names, and bounce ideas off of folks, and kind of increase the throughput on your your pipeline, and depending on your team size, you know, like us, like, I think a fund of funds isn’t a terrible idea. Yeah, it’s, I think venture funds can generate good returns. And if you find the right partner, I think they can be very valuable, additive to your process. And so if you do decide to invest with a fund of funds, make sure you leverage that relationship to the best of your ability, because you can really again, like it’s a good kind of foundation building for your broader Venture Program.