Earnest Sweat 00:14
Well, so happy to have you, Elizabeth and we typically before we start, and kind of the X’s and O’s of what an allocator does here on our show, we love to just kind of hear the origin story. And so wanted to hear kind of how you got here, because I think it’s from our prep conversation. It was so fascinating in all the different roles and asset classes you’ve been a part of. Yeah.

Elizabeth Egan 00:40
So first, thank you. So excited to be here, but I’d say a quick overview of myself. Professionally, I’ve been in the investment industry for nearly 15 years, but both as an LP and a GP, and I was a division three college athlete. And one thing to know about d3 athletes is we always like to bring it back to our collegiate careers that were pretty mediocre, very mediocre. But so I started my career at TIFF as an LP, and I would say pretty early on I realized I was only a one or two tool player, and like going back to being an athlete, like to be great or to be really well rounded, you need to shoot, pass and also play defense. Defense is very important, so I kind of knew I needed to go round out my skill set. So I went back to business school, I went to tuck and then I interned at a hedge fund, and then worked at breakaway ventures for five and a half years. So I got direct investing experience, both on the public side and then also the private side, at a really early inflection point too. So that’s kind of like the reason for being. But ultimately I boomerang back to tiff about a year ago, and I think there are real reasons for it. And I think really I started my career as an LP at TIFF, it kind of was my first love, like, don’t tell my husband, but I just was obsessed with the industry, and I was really obsessed with it, and it kind of became part of my DNA, really on, and it’s like, where I really built, like, how to think as an investor early on. So I always knew at some inflection point I was going to come back to the LP world. So the TIF mission is pretty great. So that’s like a high level, but happy to kind of go from,

Alexa Binns 03:21
. Your alumni are new or making lots of choices these days. Yeah, same, the famous graduates of Bowdoin now that you’re back in the LP seat. Do you feel that having been earlier in the food chain has changed any of your thinking?

Elizabeth Egan 03:43
Yes, like 100% and the analogy I always like to use is, in the venture industry, it’s really common to see operators and entrepreneurs turn investors and at a lot of firms, that’s like a requirement, really, for like, two key reasons. First, you understand the entrepreneurial journey, and you can add value and to like what you’ve built in an industry. So you know the nuance and kind of the forces at B and A in a real way. And I think, like, that’s kind of the clarity that, like coming back to the LP world, is what I have of like, being able to connect with GPS and add value, because they’re also business builders, and then to just really seeing the deals that they do and understanding, like the full nuance behind it. So, so yeah, that’s, that’s kind of what I’ve learned, or like, I’m seeing now, kind of with, like, a more clear vision than than previously.

Earnest Sweat 04:50
Do you think it gave you also, like, a stronger sniff test? Because we’ve talked to so many different allocators where they say, if you just go in, kind of blah. Mind and listen to everyone because everyone’s impressive, right? That’s far. First of all, that’s a huge jump. Not, I don’t know if I use everybody, but a lot of people are impressive, right? And they and they have these visions, and you get swept away. Did it really help you on, like, all right?

Elizabeth Egan 05:18
Yes, I’d say, like, and you guys know this when, like, I met a lot of entrepreneurs, and I mainly focused on the consumer sector. And one thing about consumer entrepreneurs is they are passionate. They’re, like, the most passionate people I’ve ever met and probably will ever meet. But like, they all have great decks that are beautifully branded. They all have really big customer problems they’re going after and trying to solve and markets they’re trying to disrupt. Like, at a high level, every pitch sounds good, but it’s like unpacking, like the real minutia of everything is that’s what makes companies successful, to me, ultimately, and it’s like, just like, core principles of, what is the customer problem? Like, how obsessed is the founder of the product? Like, what are the core unit economics of the business? Is there any distribution and then, is there a kind of founder market fit within the problem they’re trying to solve. And, you know, like, going really deep into, like, all those layers. And it’s the same with the GP side, like, passionate people. They’re all beautiful decks. Like, they all look good, they all have great strategies, unique vantage points of the market, but like, it’s going that level deeper, where the sniff test, like is kind of what you ultimately see. So,

Alexa Binns 06:50
yeah, I don’t think we’ve had any allocator on who has spent as much time in consumer packaged goods brands. What? What is that? How does that inform what you’re doing as an LP? Is this, I truly think most people listening have very little context on how to invest as an LP in physical consumer goods.

Elizabeth Egan 07:15
Yeah, well, I actually think consumerism is the best training ground full stop for either an entrepreneur building something or an investor. And the reason being is it, it’s ruthless, like it’s just you’re competing every single day, and like you have to, you have to perform on every metric, like product, brand, distribution team, everything matters every day. And like, it’s a really quick feedback loop. Like, if it’s not good, you know, and if it is good, like, there’s a really, really fast copy coming, whether it’s on Amazon or another competitive brand. So, like, I just think it teaches you really strong fundamentals, and specifically from an investor lens, like, how does the story and narrative and brand and everything come together so customers not only want to buy your product, but repeat? So it’s, I just think it’s pretty fundamental and kind of applied to this whole universe, like brand does really matter in the investment industry, specifically in venture so I think it’s a really important pack factor no matter what category you’re in.

Earnest Sweat 08:37
Is it being a great, you know, training ground, especially because you get this, like the things you’re talking about, distribution brand, you’re really getting an insight to how to underwrite, kind of the human psychology that is so important to business. Curious on how that training ground that you got applies now to with AI, you know, being an ever ubiquitous in every industry, and how that’s changing, even how enterprise and B to B solutions scale.

Elizabeth Egan 09:28
Yeah, so the AI world is fascinating, and I think we’re just at the early innings, but kind of applied to back, like back to what I’m doing now. At TIFF I think there’s two things that you can’t change, and the first is partnership, and the second is judgment. And within partnership, like the whole industry, the joke is these funds, like. Last longer than the average marriage. We laugh, but it’s kind of true, like, specifically venture funds, they last for forever. So you really have to have trust and a real partnership with who you’re sitting across the table from. And AI can’t do that, and I don’t think it will do that anytime soon, at least. So as all information kind of becomes commoditized, I think that’s what will continue to be like, a real barrier to entry and vote and then second in terms of judgment, machines allow you to eat faster, but they don’t replace taste, and taste really, really matters in the investment industry. So I think that will also continue to be remote as AI, and everything becomes more commoditized with data

Alexa Binns 10:54
that relates a little bit to sort of these, like network effects. I’ve heard you speak about how you think about, like, human centric strategies for whether it’s finding managers or what, what they excel at?

Elizabeth Egan 11:11
Yeah, it’s fascinating because, going back to my consumer experience, network effects are the biggest barrier to entry and most for not only consumer based businesses, but any business in any category. And what’s fascinating to me is it’s very true, not only in the investment industry, but private markets and venture capital, like venture capital, is a network based business full stop, and so is the LP world, frankly, and personal networks only compound over time. So I think, like in going back to AI, in this whole world of digitization and data, I think the referral, the network driven referral process is only going to become more important, and like we lean on it a lot at Tiff and I think we’re going to start to lean on it even more.

Alexa Binns 12:09
So could you give us a little background on the TIF playbook? Yes. How are you approaching this shift?

Elizabeth Egan 12:21
So I’ll start giving a high level just so the audience can kind of know a little bit about TIFF. So tiff was founded in the early 90s by foundations, for foundations. So we were founded by the Rockefeller Foundation and the MacArthur Foundation, and all of our clients are mission braced, you know, small to mid size, universities, non profits, community foundations, hospital networks, and that’s still very core to what we do today. We manage 9 billion total in AUM, and then we have 3 billion in private markets. And private markets, we have a pretty focused strategy, so we focus on lower middle market private equity, early stage ventures, and then we have a direct equity book where we access micro cap private equity through independent sponsors. So that’s kind of like the backdrop for where, where I spend time in the private market world, but I spent a ton of time in venture, and I think venture right now is such an interesting time. It’s really interesting, really for two reasons. First, we have a platform shift. Everyone knows AI has arrived, but venture is dominated by product cycles and platform shifts. So just a unique early time to be investing into this new wave. And then second, we have a generational shift to like we’re like everyone who’s 3040, at a big firm is thinking about like, Okay, I think there’s a lot of structural dynamics for how where those firms are in their life cycles, and younger younger GPS wanting to break out and start something new. So I think because of those two things, it’s been a very active time for us. And like, I think we’ve been thinking about, okay, structurally, how, how do we position the portfolio to win in the next decade? So I’ll pause there, but that’s kind of like Tiff and how we’re starting to think about venture for the next 10 years

Earnest Sweat 14:39
before, before we get into the kind of, like, how you execute it on that. I think one of the realizations for me over these two plus years and talking about allocators is one, winning looks different for everybody. So what’s tiff’s definition of like, winning, winning?

Elizabeth Egan 14:59
Well, I. I’d say in terms of performance, high real rates of return, like our clients are locking up their capital. So that needs to be justified, because you need to reach a certain level to have the illiquidity premium worth it. So I think that first and foremost, of high, high, real rates of return, and ventures a lot of risk. So that’s kind of how we get there, and an important piece of it,

Earnest Sweat 15:33
and so to that point is it like, there’s there, seems like there’s a dichotomy in or actually, like, I’m starting to, like, not say it’s not so cut, cut and dry, of, like, this way versus that way. It’s kind of a five out of me or six out of me, whatever. Like, there’s just a lot of different strategies. How do you guys believe you’re going to get to those industry leading returns? Is it, you know, super brands are going to maintain? Is it something in the middle? Is it like a fragmented spin out? What is your viewpoint on that?

Elizabeth Egan 16:06
Yeah, so I think, like, maybe to take a little step back. This market is really competitive at this point, like capital is abundant, like it’s no longer Harvard and Yale and like a few endowments that are investing in private equity and venture, everyone is and then, at the same time, retail is coming too, So everyone’s going to be investing in it. Two pieces of information is a lot more commoditized, and it’s going to become more commoditized with AI. And then three, like all kinds of the playbooks have been standardized, really, over the last 20 and 30 years, as alts have become more pervasive in portfolios. So like, it’s tough, like, it’s a tough world to be deploying capital in. So that’s kind of where we come in, and we think, like, where’s the puck going? Like, what do we need to do to continue to generate alpha and higher real rates of return? And it, frankly, it’s going where scale can’t go, and it’s going to really inefficient, kind of weird areas of the market where no, like, where networks matter. Diligence really, really matters, and like, you need to have networks to unpack it. And things don’t, things aren’t fully wrapped up in a beautiful marketing bone, like, yeah, so that’s, that’s why going back to where we focus, we’re we focus on the most inefficient areas in the market, so lower middle market, PE, early stage venture, and then micro cap. PE, so in a really broad universe where our competitors do a lot of different things, like credit, real estate, at this inflection point, like we want to stay focused on the smaller end so we can have a shot at generating like, true performance. So I’ll pause there, but that’s kind of the layout of how we think about where to spend time now.

Earnest Sweat 18:22
We’re going to take a quick break to speak with our sponsor

Alexa Binns 18:25
on the show. Today we have our stellar partner and industry expert, Shane Gowdy. He’s the leader of Sidley’s venture funds practice, and if you get value from this podcast, we have Shane and the Sidley team to thank for it. They make these recordings possible. We are looking forward to hearing from you. Shane, liquidity has been a huge topic the past few years. And could you share an example of something you’ve or your team has done with a GP of late, to walk us through what is finding one of these? You know, maybe it’s a secondary vehicle or Opportunity Fund. What does it actually

Shane Goudey 19:04
look I’ll get to a more specific example in a minute, but just an observation, kind of globally, about the just activity level and just the insight and the level of discussion we’re having with fund managers about getting liquidity now, having a more robust MQ and IPO market certainly helps, but it doesn’t solve all the relative problems of the world. So I think what we’ve seen is a lot of fund managers establish much closer ties to the secondary fund community, just even if it’s just a diligence, you know, a relationship establishment, just basic blocking and tackling of being a good venture manager and creating channels for liquidity, just managing basic paths like that, even regardless of a more specific transactional structure, there’s just been a lot of dialog between the secondary world and venture capital, whether it’s company side or whether it’s, you know, venture fund. People are having active discussions, and those have led to, you know, strategic acquisitions of certain strips of companies, you know, kind of onesie twosies, exiting of positions on some things. You know, the secondary players tend to like a bigger portfolio. They don’t really look at particular sector assets unless it’s AI, and then they’ll buy into one asset. And, you know, hope, you know, roll the dice on the crap table, and hope to God that that, you know, particular company is really going to make it and break it, and it has succeeded for a number of them. And, you know, obviously, a lot of the big issues are the valuations that come with these transactions. And what kind of real liquidity are you providing for your LPs? You know, the more exotic things that are happening, you know, are things like continuation funds. You know, those are really only happening at the very largest venture shops. A lot of that has to deal with just the fact that you may have to become a registered advisor and not be an exempt reporting advisor anymore. And there’s some real costs and consequences to exploring those channels. But one real interesting transaction that I worked on, obviously, the client will remain nameless, is we established a level of preferred equity in a fund within an existing fund structure, where we somewhat reopen the Fund for a new or two new third party investors to inject some capital into the fund. Based on a particular third party valuation of the portfolio, we made a distribution of some of those proceeds to the underlying what were now common limited partner holders to gain them some liquidity. And then, on a go forward basis, some of that capital would then almost reopen the investment period to be able to invest in new companies, you know, a lot of conflicts, a lot of really funny issues, a lot of structuring, a lot of conversations to be had, to do something that exotic. But those are the kinds of things that we were looking at, you know, this time last year, to really try to massage and manage a way out and gain the kind of, again, gas in the tank that these venture capitalists need to be able to, from a track record performance standpoint, to create good relations with your LPs, but create your numbers. You know, we’re looking at Mike’s and tvpi and IRRs and you know we got to have, you know, we got to put points on the board. And so, you know, as you get launched into kind of these days, when maybe the apples are a little more bent towards the ground and easier to pick, you know, nonetheless, there’s still some picking to do. And, you know, those are the kinds of things that we were doing over the last couple years to really try to create liquidity for our clients.

Alexa Binns 22:38
Yeah, I can think of at least one friend who they just reopened their earlier fund for fall, for additional investors recently, and it was interesting to look at the way they were positioning and messaging it. They said, We know what’s in here, and we know what’s really good. So you know, if you’re one of the LPS joining now, you have so much more information for me. Yeah.

Shane Goudey 23:02
And on the reverse side of that, you’ll see, in particular, again, with the entree of this AI effect on everything it’s really starting to explore more robustly things like opportunities to slash annex funds, right? More when we’ve run out of the capital that we can spend on these great companies. It’s not necessarily even to think, you know, on the secondary front, it’s almost doubling up on the companies that we do have. And so seeing that kind of extra injection of capital, you know, because we saw a million different SPVs of all shapes and colors, in particular on big AI deals. And, you know, a nine figure SPV is being formed. It was nuts over the last like year and a half, the kinds of things and the sizes of the deals, and that’s only continuing to proliferate. So you know, whether people try to be a little more collective and pool that capital for more of a blind pool vehicle, as opposed to onesies and twosies for these great deals of theirs that get negotiated to death and but nonetheless, you know, it’s been a very, a very interesting to see a sea to swim in for a long time and see all the wonderful sea creatures that pop up as we swim through it. It’s good stuff,

Alexa Binns 24:16
man, I would love to understand you just said these SPVs are getting negotiated to death. How many layers of people there are to negotiate?

Shane Goudey 24:27
Yeah, it’s a lot, right? And in particular, when you get the very large institutional investors, and then it’s, it’s almost like negotiating a main fund. It’s the levels of, you know, economics that they’ve got to pay, you know, this management fee, or that carry or, you know, are we tiering Carrie based on the performance of the company? And, you know, let’s pair with that. Yes, we’re forming an SPV, but we want even co-investment on the SPV, and it, a lot of it is just prescient in relationship management for the underlying fund managers, and it’s kind of our job to. Can hold them through that. You know. Here are the advantages and disadvantages of a green maybe not the best economic term, but from a relationship management as you’re thinking about forming next blind pool vehicle and illustrating for the limited partner community about the access to the deals that you have and the willingness that you, you know, are to hear their voices in what they want. You know, it’s not just the capital, but it really is the purpose behind it. And, you know, a lot of that really is just, you know, working with people to kind of see the forest through the trees a lot of the time. And, yeah, but it’s been crazy. I mean, there’s been deals where it’s preferred, you know, you get private equity concept, net, IRR, return, hurdles and all kinds of stuff discussed. It’s, it’s, it’s been a hell of a two months. No doubt it’s been wonderful for me. As you know, again, I represent all different investors in the venture stream, but they’re venture investors, right? And we get up to the growth stage, you know, concentrated firms or growth stage deals that start to sprinkle on them a lot of these private equity elements to them having colleagues who, not only on the fun side, but on the deal side, just get it and can really sophisticatedly, add a lot of advice and content to the kind of consultation you’re doing With your venture clients. You know, these upstream deals get really complex, and having this kind of incredible horsepower here to our firm has been so accretive to our ability to really do these deals.

Alexa Binns 26:32
And now back to our LP interview. One of the requests I recently heard from a listener was a little bit of historical context. Is there? Can you give us some background on sort of, like, why these things? This is the area. These three you’ve just listed off are kind of where you all see yourselves being able to make a dent, like where what’s changed in that space, or what is it about tiff’s history that kind of aligns those up?

Elizabeth Egan 27:11
Yeah, I think, like this is a private equity stat, but out of all the private market companies, 80% of them have revenue less than 100 million, but that segment only gets 20% of the capital, versus like 80% of the capital goes to companies with over 100 million. So I think, like we like backdrops like that where it’s like, okay, that is by definition, inefficient. So if you can go find partners who have a unique point of view or are thesis driven, they can add value and with really small companies still, and there’s a very deep institutional private equity market to kind of sell into as well. So and the same in early stage ventures. We’ve been investing in ventures since the 90s, and so we’ve been in a lot of the blue chip kind of venture names, and have been able to really compound over time. And we like the early stage because of the risk reward profile and kind of the asymmetric upside. And it’s again, like you guys do this every day, but it’s where numbers aren’t fully clear, and you got to really do your homework. So it’s very different from late stage ventures where, you know, everyone knows the AR and the retention metrics, and that’s why we focus there, and have done well in that stage of the market as well.

Earnest Sweat 28:59
How have you all with so much fragmentation in the early stage venture, been able to, really, I’m trying to get it like, make sure you’re finding the right types of fund managers that have that potential to provide Alpha. Like, have there been tactics like, trying to find new nodes of communities or trying to track people before they even think about starting their own firm? Just curious, if you have some tactics for the rest of our audience. That is, allocators.

Elizabeth Egan 29:34
Yeah, I know it’s, it’s hard, but we’re again, we’re very first principles driven. But I’d say there’s a few things we tend to like and look for. We like small fund sizes that make venture math easier to underrate. We like investing at an early stage. We. We tend to like people who can write a lead check, or there’s an opportunity to lead around. And managers have to have some point of view, whether it’s on portfolio construction, or some unique vantage of how industries are shifting or what they’re looking to build. There’s some kind of through line of, like, why are they doing this? Because, again, like our earlier points, everything can start to sound the same. So we’re looking for something unique. Unique is a bad word. But like, kind of specific angles managers have, either to connect with founders, win founders, or add value in certain areas, niche areas of the market. And we’ve been backing emerging managers, really, since the beginning of TIF. It’s really core to what we do. So those are kind of the fundamentals, I think, right now too, just in terms of, like, an interesting time in venture capital, like, we’re seeing this cottage industry really professionalize in a real way. And like, what I’m seeing is, like, there’s this big barbell, like you have these platform firms that have institutionalized, and I think the stat I saw last year is like 70% of the capital sits with 30 managers, yeah, yeah, which is crazy. And then on the other end, you have more fun small funds than ever, because the barrier to entry has dropped like it’s 20 years ago. It is pretty hard to even create a fund, and now it’s you have institutional angels, you have all sorts of people in that early market, and I think 70% of funds fall below like a $25 million threshold,

Alexa Binns 32:40
Are there conversations you have to have with your clients on why you’re focused so early, and any misperceptions or sort of favorite stories you end up having to share with your clients to bring them on board this strategy.

Elizabeth Egan 33:09
You know, I think it’s been such a hallmark of tiff for a really long time, of backing early managers at the beginning of their life cycle, definitely within venture, but also in our private equity portfolio as well. So we do a lot of direct deals with independent sponsors, and have a whole kind of product centered around that. And independent sponsors are literally at the earliest stages of building. Like to give an analogy for the venture world, it’s like they’re at the pre seed, seed stage. So I think it’s been a hallmark for Tiff and how we’ve backed and used our expert networks, our board to really find unique people early in their business, build careers and generate high real rates of return, and also compound those relationships over really long durations of time. So I think we’ve seen that kind of thing across the TIFF portfolio, both in venture and in private markets. What does

Alexa Binns 34:25
a typical sort of relationship look like in terms of commitments or fund sizes? Like, how do you grow with these managers?

Elizabeth Egan 34:34
Yeah, I would say broadly speaking, and use our direct strategy. We’ll do deal by deal with sponsors, and do three, four or five deals with the sponsor, and then when they’re ready to raise a fund. We’ve already done all of our manager diligence. We’ve done, we’ve underwritten the deals. Alongside them, so we quite literally know pretty much everything you could know about them and their deals and their investment philosophy, and be really early in high conviction and to fund one and write a bigger check. So that’s how we’ve approached it. On the private equity side, on the venture side, I think it’s about spending time, like, time early on with GPS and again, trying to unpack them and like, unpack the strategy, the process and philosophy to gain conviction for the fund and we’re institutional piece, so we really try hard to underwrite for decades and not years or just one fund. So not that we have a hard and fast rule, like, once we invest, we are in for, you know, all the rest of the funds, but that’s kind of

Alexa Binns 36:00
like it’s on you to mess it up

Elizabeth Egan 36:03
exactly, but we’re looking to build really long term relationships that we can compound with so

Earnest Sweat 36:15
I think to that point, I would love to hear Your perspective on when you’re approaching, as a fund manager, an institutional investor like yourself, like, there are different ways you should be doing it, when you’re thinking like, I would think assume, like taking your time, showing your full like, Hey, this is the vision. Are there other kinds of things you’re looking for to see if someone actually has what it takes to be a long term fund manager and not just a long term investor.

Elizabeth Egan 36:48
Yes, well, it’s so funny. I feel like GPS forgets that they’re also building businesses. It’s so funny, I don’t I feel like that’s like the biggest quote, unquote mistake that I tend to see is like, GP is just being so focused on one deal or just one fundraise, and they’re not thinking long term about building an enduring business where, I think you see more of that on the found, like on when, like when you’re meeting with entrepreneurs. But GPs are entrepreneurs, so I think, like, what really differentiates fund managers and GPS early on is like you can really tell when folks are being thoughtful about not just like the first fund and who they’re going to raise money from, but like, how they’re building the business both. It’s a marketplace like both, with founders on one side and then your institution, your lips on the other side. And they both matter, and they both are needed to kind of build something that is going to last, like 2030, years, because these funds are really long. So I think thinking about that, along with how you build your team, is quite important, and differentiating early on too, like you can really hear it when a GP has a reason. Like, I think a lot of like, going back to my experience with consumer founders, like, most of that, like, why they build something is born out of, like, a passion or a really extreme personal problem. This, this, this industry, no, so, like, a lot of like, you know, you hear a lot of whining, like, oh my gosh, my carry got cut. Or, like, it’s all like, economic based. And I think the people that build the best enduring businesses have, like, fun businesses have a real reason for why they’re doing it. That’s, yes, it’s financially oriented, it’s the business model, but there’s also other components to it as well.

Earnest Sweat 41:40
with 30 and 40 somethings actually realizing they’re adults and history showing like in the past, people look to them for new playbooks. Where do you think this goes 10 years from now? What does venture look like? Is there a venture middle class? Is it or is it just even further smaller, and there’s like the top 10 firms have 90% of the capital. Where do you think things are going?

Elizabeth Egan 42:40
I go back to this concept of GP talent density. Like I think venture is an industry where very few companies matter, but I also think very few GPS matter. And like on our end, we need exposure. We need to make sure we’re getting exposure to those, you know, decades, those compounders, like the companies that matter, and then we get that through the people who matter. And I think it’s going to be an interesting decade, because I do think with this generational shift, more people like there’s a lot of reasons to go do it on their own and not sit in a structure that doesn’t work for you. So but at the same time, I think with all the capital that’s going to continue to come into private markets, I don’t see that changing over the next decade. I think it’s only going to be that we’re going to have more capital and more companies staying private longer. You’re the best in class, CEO, why go? Why go? Be a public market CEO, and if you can charge really expensive fees as a manager, why let those companies go public? So I just, I just think things are going to be private longer, and I think there’s a structural component to it. So I think it will allow, kind of the larger, later stage, firms just to become more professionalized and institutionalized as that has continued. So I think it will become bigger on that end, but I think there will be other kinds of institutional dynamics that happen in that category. And then I think you will see a continuation of more emerging managers, but, but maybe with less like duration like they might not all, they won’t all last beyond fund one and two. So I think those that kind of break out will be. Come the new middle like, I think in this barbell world that we’re living in right now, like there’s, like, I feel like everyone in that 500 to a billion dollar fund size is like, lost. So I think, but I think, like, the next crop of emerging managers will grow into it. So I don’t know if that specifically answers your question, but I think if you want to make high real rates of return as an LP, like all the data shows, you need to be early with specialist managers earlier in their life. So I think that’s where we’re going to continue to spend most of our time.